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New game for the Beeb
http://www.retrosoftware.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=624		 Page 4 of 6
Author:  KianV [ Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New game for the Beeb
Back again!
My coding time has been severely restricted over the last few days but what I've had I have used reasonably constructively.

tricky: Thanks for that.
Jeltron looks very promising. When I have time I shall take sneaky peek at the code.

MichaelS: Well done! Did you not believe me when I said that they were all possible? Still, if it helps find a solution then please indulge in as much skepticism as possible :)

Anyhow, for those who may be interested - and to give Martin an excuse to tear out even more hair . . .

***2 for the price of none***
MazezaM now comes packaged with 'MazezaM II - Monstrous MazezaM'
(Thanks to Sam for the name)
http://www.retrosoftware.co.uk/wiki/index.php/MazezaM#Downloads_-_BBC.2FMaster
While beavering away in an attempt to come up with a useable level designer I became a little side-tracked and created another 39 levels. :twisted:
They start off a little less gently and get beastly that bit quicker.
I wasn't planning on releasing them into the wild just yet but Michael has forced my hand ;)
Are they harder than the others ? I don't really know. It's a personal thing, but they do require a little more forward planning than before.
The final level is something of a stinker.

My apologies for the lower-than-low-tech menu screen but the aim was just to make something useable for now and not slow down the start-up process too much.
I may come back to this later.

All adulation, defamation and suggestions via the usual routes please.

Kian

P.S. They are all possible.
Author:  MichaelS [ Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New game for the Beeb
KianV wrote:
MichaelS: Well done! Did you not believe me when I said that they were all possible?

I know from long experience of designing and testing Repton levels that it's very easy to make a slip in inputting that inadvertently makes a level impossible -- just as I would guess the existence of a trivial solution on L10 is likely to be error rather than design.

KianV wrote:
They start off a little less gently and get beastly that bit quicker.

Shooting for the understatement of the century award? ;) I'm on L10 of the new set now -- excellent design, in spite of the size it's fairly easy to get started and understand the level, but solving it is another matter!

So far the ones that took me the longest, of this new set, were L3 and L5, though I was missing something obvious until the very end on the latter. But I'd say all of these levels are tough - the first ten seem to be roughly on a par with 20-30 (excluding 26) from the first set.

Please do let me know what you decide as regards my suggestions for rearranging the first set and modifying L10. I really don't mind either way, but I'd like to know what your decision is so that I have a definitive final level set to work from when (if you will permit) I make a video playthrough.

EDIT: Solved L10! :D That was excellent -- a very satisfying and well-hidden solution. L11 didn't take me too long, since I went for the chess-problem-like approach of "obviously the top two rows are there for a reason, so...." and now L12 is another real stonker; my favourite levels are the small ones like this that appear utterly impossible until you find the solution because there just doesn't seem to be anything you can do!

EDIT: Solved L12 as well :) That has to be one of my favourite levels in either set -- if you just keep going by trial and error as it's always tempting to do, you will not find the solution, but it can be found (fairly simply, once you've understood the level) by logic. Reminds me a lot of "Double Decker" in the first set, which was also one of the best levels. L13 however has me completely stumped again!!!
Author:  KianV [ Sun Jun 26, 2011 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New game for the Beeb
Michael: Glad you're finding this a bit of a step up from the first set. :D
Regarding your suggestions about the level changes, I have been replaying through them myself trying to make a judgement. I must admit that this is not so easy to do as I cannot do so from such a detached perspective as yourself.(This is why external playtesters have been a good idea.)
I am most grateful for the time and effort that you have put into this and will probably now move 26 to the current L8 position and L8 to after the current L11.
On a similar note, I have been hammering L10 trying to find a different way from my own to complete it but without success. Would you mind sending me a PM with an explanation of the 'loophole' and this might jog things on a little.
Once the final decision is made then I would be very pleased if you would make a playthrough.

Thanks,
Kian

Let me know how you get on with L13.
Author:  KianV [ Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New game for the Beeb
MichaelS wrote:
You may want to fix or remove Level 10. There's a (presumably unintended) solution that makes it utterly trivial.

He wasn't kidding!
Don't know how I missed that one :oops:

Thanks to Michael's diligence, this little hiccup has been purged and, following his other recommendations, a couple of other levels have been moved about.

Please download v2.1 for what will maybe/hopefully/possibly be the final revision.
The ReadMe contains a more detailed description of the changes.

Kian
Author:  MichaelS [ Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New game for the Beeb
Excellent. I've re-solved "Little Rascal", and the solution is the same as the one I originally found. (Incidentally, I found a second unintended solution to the published version -- yellow row two places right, go round the top, green row one place left, etc. -- and this has also been eliminated in the revised version.)

A quick note about Level 5, "Conway's Game". Obviously this is meant to be an easy level, and an introduction to the fact that large levels are not necessarily complex ;) but did you realise that you can get through the lower half just by pushing the white, yellow and green rows each one square right? If this is not intended, I have a suggested fix: move the rightmost block in the yellow row into the extreme right column, with no other changes.

Can I request a "move back one level" key? It's annoying when I press F1 instead of Esc by accident.
Author:  mga1103 [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New game for the Beeb
KianV wrote:
...Anyhow, for those who may be interested - and to give Martin an excuse to tear out even more hair . . .


Hehe...sorry Kian, I've moved on from that! I now shave the whole head (or what's left to be shaved!) just to avoid trying to pull out any more hair! Well, that's my excuse anyways :lol:

Looking forward to the "II" version...when I get a chance! (Next time I emerge, I may be missing eyebrows :twisted: ).

Great to see you've been productive Kian! And as for MichaelS, what can I say other than well done and one question: have you any eyebrows left? :lol:

[Jeez, disappear 'round here for a weekend and everyone goes cracked! :D . Ok, eyebrows, here I come... :twisted:]
Author:  MichaelS [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New game for the Beeb
mga1103 wrote:
And as for MichaelS, what can I say other than well done and one question: have you any eyebrows left? :lol:

Not only eyebrows, I still have my lovely 40cm-long hair intact :)

Oh, and I finally beat Level 13. I have to say, what I really like about this new set so far is the way several of the levels turn out to be amenable to a logical approach but could leave you stuck for ever if you stubbornly persisted with pure trial and error. This is true of 12 (as I mentioned above), 13, and 14 (which didn't have me stuck nearly as long as 13, but still an excellent puzzle and elegant solution)... 15 was disappointingly simple though.

EDIT: At last, I beat Level 16, another very difficult one but also one that eventually yielded to logical analysis. Level 17 was ridiculously easy in comparison. 18 was better and tougher but not nearly as tough as 16.
Author:  MichaelS [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New game for the Beeb
19 - my solution was unusual so I'm not sure if it was intended (I've sent you a PM about it) but it was very, very difficult to find.
20, 21 - nice tricky stumpers, but didn't have me stuck nearly as long as 19
22, 23, 24 - charming levels (as the title to 22 suggested) but straightforward and yielded pretty quickly to a systematic approach
Author:  MichaelS [ Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New game for the Beeb
25 was exceptionally nasty, and I have to confess that in the end I did it by stumbling around until I fell across the solution by accident.

26-29 continue the theme of elegant levels that yield to a logical approach but are not very difficult -- certainly this set has not yet had any (except perhaps 16) up to the standard of the last few in the first set.

30-32 are very nice -- again I didn't find these too difficult, but I can see how that's because they build on techniques from earlier levels, and now that I know these techniques it's not too difficult to work out how to put them together to construct solutions.

33-34 -- excellent levels, really elegant solutions, though again the solution process was just working out the steps I needed to achieve and then using previous techniques to achieve each one. I did particularly like how on Level 34 it's not all over once you've worked out how to push the cyan block left, there's a lot of subtlety about the solution to this one. It probably would have had me stuck for a long time if I'd come across it in the first set before I'd learnt all the techniques needed.

35-37 -- these continue to get steadily more complex, but again, as it's just putting together techniques I'm familiar with by now, none of these had me stuck for very long.
Author:  KianV [ Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New game for the Beeb
You're rattling through them now, Michael.
I'm impressed.
As I said at the beginning the amount of forward planning increases as they go on.
But it's good to see you getting stuck now and again ;)

Kian
Author:  MichaelS [ Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New game for the Beeb
Level 38 was awesome. Although, from the position in the attached savestate, I stumbled upon the rest of the solution by accident while trying to do something different, the mechanism needed to reach the position (and the logic involved in deducing that reaching this position was desirable) was exceptionally beautiful and intricate. Definitely my favourite level so far of either set (and also the hardest!!!)

Attachments:
Level 38.zip [30.75 KiB]
Downloaded 8 times
Author:  MichaelS [ Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New game for the Beeb
All done. Level 39 was very good -- like the last level of the original set, I liked the fact that at first it appears utterly impossible. It was less difficult than Level 38 (of the second set) but that's not a problem; especially because of the awe-inducing factor it feels appropriate to leave them in their present order.

So, I have no further suggestions for improving either set, unless my above comments should make you think that I've found an easier-than-intended solution to any particular level (though I think this is unlikely). Which means, if you're happy with 2.1 being the final version, I'm ready to start videoing it -- if I can get my old video software installed and running again on Natsuki (my new computer).

BIG BIG BIG SPOILER FOR SECOND SET, LEVEL 39:

The best thing about the level was the fact that the solution depends on a move that all your instincts and everything you've learned from the previous levels tell you not to do -- but really, when it comes down to it, what else is there to try?
Author:  KianV [ Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New game for the Beeb
Congratulations, Michael :D , and many thanks for all the hard work you've put in to giving all my levels a generous hammering. I'm glad you enjoyed the process too.
very well put spoiler, btw
I hope you get the your capture software up and running OK as 2.1 will be the final version. :D :D :D

In case all you Elk users are feeling a little left out, your version has just been updated to include the new level set as well. :D
http://www.retrosoftware.co.uk/wiki/index.php/MazezaM#Downloads_-_Electron_Version


Martin, I think you have some catching up to do again. ;)

Kian
Author:  mga1103 [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New game for the Beeb
KianV wrote:
...
Martin, I think you have some catching up to do again. ;)
Kian

"some catching up..." --> understatement of the year, I think! :oops:
Promise I'll try and get some time to get past level..ahem...cough...., soon ;)
Author:  KianV [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New game for the Beeb
Just a quicky.
I've updated the levels in set 1 of the Electron version in line with the Beeb version so that they are now, except for a few aesthetic differences, both identical.

Kian
Author:  MichaelS [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New game for the Beeb
We have video!
Author:  mga1103 [ Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New game for the Beeb
Good choice of music for it 8-)
Author:  MichaelS [ Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New game for the Beeb
I've recorded all the levels up to Level 33 now, but haven't compiled Part 2 into a single video or even decided how many levels it will contain.

Now, is this an unintended solution to Level 25, "Up, Up and Away", or was I just making things unnecessarily complicated for myself the first time I solved the level?

You don't need to get the bottom block all the way left.
Author:  MichaelS [ Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New game for the Beeb
I've decided, as I've got this far, to finish recording all the remaining levels (of the first set) before compiling the videos. Having a total length to work with will make it much easier to decide how many levels to put in each video and to find suitable music (though I fear I won't be able to find any quite as appropriate as the first one).

I'm now up to "The Wumpus Room" and leaving it there for tonight. It's been an interesting experience. For each level, after completing it I've gone back and tried to recreate the solution (and at the same time find shortcuts) so that I can play the level in one take for the video. So this means I've had to understand the logic of each level -- there are some, for instance L32 and of course the notorious L34, that I completed fairly quickly and then couldn't recreate my solution at all! But understanding the logic does enable me to do that.

Of course, the short duration of the levels has made this a relatively painless process -- so far, only "Zen Garden" takes more than half a minute on the video, though L18 "Loop-de-Loop" came close and was unexpectedly long for a level that early in the order. But you can imagine why "The Wumpus Room" has me particularly apprehensive ;)

Please do answer the above question about L25.
Author:  KianV [ Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New game for the Beeb
I've had a few busy days and come back to find that Michael has been too. :D
Excellent choice of music!
My first thought was Colonel Abrams' 'Trapped' but yours is much better and far less cheesy. ;)
(I'm sure I remember thinking it was good once :oops: )

Re: L25 - you were indeed making life more difficult for yourself.

Looking forward to seeing the rest!

Kian
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