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BBC Demo
http://www.retrosoftware.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=197		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  StuartA [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:06 am ]
Post subject:  BBC Demo
BBC Demo (see the stuff people are doing with C64s and CPCs at recent demo parties)
(cpcscene.org)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demo_scene

Check out -dtc ...this is pretty sick,
http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=20226
(you can run it in winape - load the disk image then type
run"-dtc
)

but the cpc demo scene has been around a while the bbc was around before the demoscene existed :)

it did have some cool pd music disks though:
http://acornelectron.co.uk/haven/cats/pd-bbc.html


What would be needed?

Program: Graphics routines, Plus a synth to play the music (possibly use some existing progs output or write a tracker).

It's ok to have some straight animation scenes, but people do like stuff with routines too (a little 3d, even just copper bar effects)

Basically putting together all the routines on this site to make attractive graphics and sound, possibly porting routines from the C64 (also 6502) could be a quick route to get some interesting effects working.

Art: Graphics - might be some existing program to write stuff with. - People like pixelart in their demos.

Music: Using whatever synth / tracker is written (certainly know @ least one person who could do this if a tracker was written)



Where?
http://www.sundowndemoparty.org/

Sundown is a small demo party to help try and revive the UK demoscene - would be pretty cool to have the first BBC demo in about 18 years.


Links
DTC CPC Demo
http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=20226

2nd Reality C64 (an example of an animation based demo I believe (a reproduction of a classic pc demo)
http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=1216

Acorn demos (archimedes though)
http://pouet.net/prodlist.php?platform[]=Acorn&order=thumbup&x=29&y=6&page=1&order=thumbup

C64 demos (watch the youtube vids if you don't have winvice)
http://pouet.net/prodlist.php?platform[]=Commodore%2064&order=thumbup

There are some pretty good spectrum ones too :)
http://pouet.net/prodlist.php?platform[]=ZX+Spectrum&order=thumbup&x=14&y=8&page=1&order=thumbup

- Sorry didn't have time to find more specific links but should be a good start


If you want to see something bang up to date, watch the PC 64k demo panic room, it's pretty rediculous what is packed in - but most people can only watch the video as you need a pretty silly graphics card.
Author:  FrancisL [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BBC Demo
If there was an Amiga style tracker available, then I could certainly do the music as well. I'm always tempted to write one, but I just don't have the time at present.

Incidentally, I used to have a tracker for the BBC many moons ago. I think it was part of the MUROM (Music ROM).

As for doing art, you could use any program or medium you like and convert it to the BBC with my BBC Micro Image Converter.

Kind regards,

Francis.
Author:  FrancisL [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BBC Demo
StuartA wrote:
Check out -dtc ...this is pretty sick,

I assume you mean "pretty slick". ;)

Kind regards,

Francis.
Author:  ParasS [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BBC Demo
Probably not: http://onlineslangdictionary.com/definition+of/sick :lol:
Author:  FrancisL [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BBC Demo
I stand corrected! :lol:

Kind regards,

Francis.
Author:  ParasS [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BBC Demo
Sick to hear it (sic). :?
Author:  GregC [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BBC Demo
Hey, are any of the attendees up for coding one in time for Byte Back? It would be a great opportunity to showcase some and look the C64ers in the eye after Retro Fusion :twisted: ARM copro users especially welcome as are demos using buckets of sideways RAM... ;)

--Greg
Author:  DaveM [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BBC Demo
GregC wrote:
Hey, are any of the attendees up for coding one in time for Byte Back? It would be a great opportunity to showcase some and look the C64ers in the eye after Retro Fusion :twisted: ARM copro users especially welcome as are demos using buckets of sideways RAM... ;)

Well, are there any volunteers for doing what Greg suggested?

Byte Back is only 2 months away, so it'd be great if we could present a graphical demo that took advantage of the ARM7 Co-Pro (guess it could be developed on an emulator in ARM Evaluation mode, if necessary?).
Author:  DaveF [ Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BBC Demo
It would be nice to see something done with that ARM copro.

I was quite excited about seeing it at Fusion 08, but then when I got there all there was to see was a command prompt :(

I've done a bit of ARM tinkery in the past but sadly cannot spare any time to work on this.

Being incredibly naive but does this copro just give you an ARM processor? So you still have the 32k to work with? Sounds like you could get away with some nice filled vectors on that setup!
Author:  DaveM [ Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BBC Demo
DaveF wrote:
I was quite excited about seeing it at Fusion 08, but then when I got there all there was to see was a command prompt :(

Exactly! :)

DaveF wrote:
Being incredibly naive but does this copro just give you an ARM processor? So you still have the 32k to work with? Sounds like you could get away with some nice filled vectors on that setup!

Both the ARM Evaluation System and A500 Co-Processor were fitted with 4Mb RAM, whilst Sprow's version is installed with 16MB, I believe.
Author:  TMR [ Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BBC Demo
GregC wrote:
Hey, are any of the attendees up for coding one in time for Byte Back? It would be a great opportunity to showcase some and look the C64ers in the eye after Retro Fusion :twisted: ARM copro users especially welcome as are demos using buckets of sideways RAM... ;)


Honestly, that'll probably not have the desired effect; C64 demo coders aim for an unexpanded machine and a disk drive, there aren't more than ten demos of the tens of thousands out there that even support expanded RAM (i wrote one of 'em myself) and the ones using the hardware aren't allowed to compete in competition against code written for stock.

And the worst risk you'd run by trying to produce something with shedloads of RAM and the ARM co-processor to look "C64ers in the eye" is if whatever was produced with all of that kit didn't manage to keep up with something like Deus Ex Machina by Oxyron and Crest or Booze Design's Edge Of Disgrace...

(Oh, h'lo everyone by the way - i'm not big on "this is me" posts... =-)
Author:  TomW [ Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BBC Demo
The ARM copro is practically useless for this sort of thing anyway - the Tube interface isn't exactly quick, so all graphics would still have to be done on the 6502.

Sideways RAM is more debatable - 32k isn't a lot, especially when a standard screen takes 20k of that, and you lose another 4k if you want discs to carry on working. Maybe just aiming for a Master 128 would be a better plan?
Author:  DaveF [ Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BBC Demo
TMR wrote:
Honestly, that'll probably not have the desired effect; C64 demo coders aim for an unexpanded machine and a disk drive, there aren't more than ten demos of the tens of thousands out there that even support expanded RAM (i wrote one of 'em myself) and the ones using the hardware aren't allowed to compete in competition against code written for stock.

Oh of course. Part of the beauty of the BBC for me is exactly that - you have so little time and space to do anything in, and that's the challenge.

The thing is though it would be nice to see something done with the copro rather than it just sat there with a command prompt!

Welcome to the forum by the way - any linkage to the stuff you've done?

Cheers
Author:  DaveJ [ Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BBC Demo
DaveF wrote:
Part of the beauty of the BBC for me is exactly that - you have so little time and space to do anything in, and that's the challenge.


Indeed - Mountain Panic looks and plays like a Commodore 64 game - it's incredibly impressive. Can't wait to see it finished.
Author:  TMR [ Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BBC Demo
DaveF wrote:
The thing is though it would be nice to see something done with the copro rather than it just sat there with a command prompt!


Games are y'best bet, doing things that the stock machine could never do (high speed scrolling dumped into the display RAM on the fly, lots of sprites in motion at full framerate, i don't know what the co-pro is actually capable of but things in that general field) and wrapping a simple action game around them where the user controls prove it's all happening on the fly.

DaveF wrote:
Welcome to the forum by the way - any linkage to the stuff you've done?


Well, the most comprehensive lists are spread over the Cosine website and my personal site but there are a few other odds and sods in the wild and more in the works or on back burners. i also write about new games for 8- and 16-bit machines for Oldschool Gaming, RGCD and Retro Gamer. =-)
Author:  DaveF [ Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BBC Demo
TMR wrote:
Well, the most comprehensive lists are spread over the Cosine website and my personal site but there are a few other odds and sods in the wild and more in the works or on back burners.

Just had a quick look, Co-Axis looks decent, and it's great to see you've dabbled on the old 2600! The box art looks great.

I've only fairly recently started having a go at this sort of thing, and doing a BBC game was something I always wanted to do. Don't get a whole lot of time though (especially at the moment) but am plodding on at my own pace!
Author:  DaveF [ Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BBC Demo
DaveJ wrote:
Indeed - Mountain Panic looks and plays like a Commodore 64 game - it's incredibly impressive. Can't wait to see it finished.

Praise indeed :) Thanks!

I've not had a lot of time to work on the game recently, but by no means have I got bored of doing it. I'll be taking a build to Byte Back in March but sadly it won't be what I intended it being due to time constraints :(
Author:  DaveM [ Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BBC Demo
I saw Co-Axis being played at Fusion 08 and it did indeed look truly AWESOME! :D
Author:  TMR [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BBC Demo
DaveF wrote:
Just had a quick look, Co-Axis looks decent, and it's great to see you've dabbled on the old 2600!


What a headache it gave me...! i ended up doing eight vertical colour splits per scanline for Blok Copy... come to think of it, every machine i've done Blok Copy for so far has put up a fight, the 2600 because the splitting was heavy going, the PET gave me grief because i needed to detect and write work-arounds for different keyboard inputs and vertical blank synchronisations... the latest version has a fairly steep learning curve too. i've got part of the fourth level for Co-Axis 2189 sorted but with writing deadlines i've had no time at all this month - i'm seriously considering re-doing the way levels are stored to add a few features (and make room for more levels, because the current system is running out of tiles) but part of me wants to get it finished and out there.

DaveF wrote:
I've only fairly recently started having a go at this sort of thing, and doing a BBC game was something I always wanted to do. Don't get a whole lot of time though (especially at the moment) but am plodding on at my own pace!


That's what i'm doing, as a kid i focused on the C64 and it's still my first love as far as 8-bits go but there's a huge list of machines i've used at some point and want to actually write some code for; the BBC is very squarely on that list, the Atari 8-bit, Plus/4 and VIC 20 are another three i have more ideas for, i'll get that 2600 code tested at some point (it broke rather badly when tested on Widdy/Cosine's Supercharger but we're not sure why) and there's half a port of Reaxion for the NES sat in a work folder that i should get back to...!
Author:  DaveM [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BBC Demo
Don't know if you are aware, but there's actually a 90% finished BBC port of Reaxion in existence (though it's not available publicly). I think it was done about 3 years ago, and the guy who converted it is a member of these forums. I believe he began writing it after chatting with Simon (Cronosoft) at a Retro Event, though I'm not sure if you were also in the 'loop'?!

Anyway, just thought I'd mention it in case you were thinking of porting that particular title to the Beeb!

But just to clarify, I'm not aware of any Acorn versions of Co-Axis! ;)

Going back to the subject of ARM Co-Pro demos, I received the following comments (+file) from Sprow himself ...

Quote:
Tricky: the demo needs to make use of the RAM and speed while not being
bottle necked waiting for the host to finish drawing. Something like a more
complex scene from Elite would be ideal, since there's lots of trig needed
along with big lists of triangles, some cropping and clipping of lists, but
the output is just drawing a few lines.

What you don't want is a pixel intensive scene (ie. lots of sprites) as the
copro will very quickly get stuck waiting for the host to release the Tube.

I'm rubbish at graphics, which is why I stick to utility things.

Also - you could write a portion of the code in C (app note on my website)
which should make things simpler. There was a recursive fractal plotter a
while back on the BBC Micro mailing list, while massively faster on the
coprocessor the picture was a little dull
http://mdfs.net/Archive/BBCMicro/2006/03/09/190312.htm


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